The Nada Yoga Debate upon request…

It started with the image being posted and then with Amarjeet questioning Surinder about the sign.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5101240&id=651111173

Amarjeet Singh

whats is this sign for bhai sahib ji?!

Thursday at 8:47pm · Like ·

Here Surinder had replied something like – Dear Amarjeet Singh Ji, this is the posture for SA in Nada Yoga. But he has removed it after my following reply to it.

Bhai Baldeep Singh:

But Surinder – I am student of Nada Yoga, these signs do not exist in Nada Yoga,..! I had even asked you about these in France after your class and you had mentioned that these were somehow developed by you on the basis of some Budhist monks. How can these be called Nada Yoga…?

Surinder Singh:

Bhai Sahib jio, Sure may be this is not from Indian Nåd yoga traditions, but Nåd is universal. All of us have our ways to make students get connected, as we had our talk in France, this is some thing i’ve learned from monks and i use this in my classes.

Bhai Baldeep Singh

 Absolutely, you have every right to your way to connect your students. But as I had also asked you then (in France) – you are connecting them (this way) with what?

If it is Gurbani Kirtan – it has had its own tradition and discipline; if it is Nada Yoga – it has had its own tradition and conventions: why use classical names to teach your own creation? Academically, I am afraid, it may show one in poor light and would raise doubts about one’s intentions – howsoever much positive and good they maybe, as in your case. You had told me that the monks did not use these mudras for the seven notes the way you are using either but that you had adapted these in your teachings – so I am taking this as your own creative contribution – fair enough.

To my knowledge, there is no Nada Yoga tradition outside India and even in India – this study was only confined to the North-Western Indian musical traditions – FYI. Nada Yoga is the rarest form of Yoga with a mere handful of people aware of its science. As it had come out of our France debate you have not studied this Yogic form formally from anyone.

This Yogic form had another name as taught to me by Bhai Sahib Ustad Arjan Singh Tarangar – an older name actually mentioned in the Yogic scriptures…! I wonder if you are already aware.

In any system of learning, dear Surinder, to first imbibe the memory of a discipline is paramount.

For, one cannot suddenly assume being a neurosurgeon without learning in a medical school that actually produces such surgeons. One wouldn’t be familiar with the tools and procedures otherwise.

If you want to create your own system, from your own inspiration – call it something else.

Why use a name which is already taken? I know ‘nada yoga’ is a very catchy one and attracts people but this is the most abused names in the western world – every tom-dick-harry has been claiming to be a ‘Nada Yoga’ exponent. To see a handsome young SIkh standing in that line would be very painful one for me personally.

One can’t even get an email or a website name if it is already in use…!

BTW, I see from the timing of your comment that you are a late night bird too! 13 minutes ago · Like · 1 person ·

This above comment has been deleted by Surinder before he sent me the following reply.

Surinder Singh

Dear Bhai Sahib ji Thank you for taking the time to write to me in such detail, apologies in advance as my other commitments restrict me from doing the same in return so i will try my best to give a suitable response.

My background of Naad Yoga did not magically appear one day, i have been in Gurushisya with great yogis and teachers of this sacred art and i would not claim to teach something that i know nothing about. I dont know much but what i do know I really do know, so i share that little knowledge with my students.

Naad Yoga is not restricted to India alone you will find that Naad Yoga exists across the world under many different titles and connects the soul beyond dialect and physical constraints its the only yoga which explores inner freedom and therefore the most universal. Incorporating some physical postures to strengthen focus on the source of a sur does not change neither effect the core of Indian Naad Yoga, in fact strengthens the knowledge within the student.

What i teach is Guru’s Shabad to be understood, sung and practiced Guru’s Way, developing the core of Naad Yoga is an important step in that process and every teacher does have the power to incorporate diversity and innovation within their teaching mechanism to best suit the learning needs of the students.

I sincerely respect your work and what you do, but there is a difference between what you do and what i do, that makes neither of us bigger or smaller just simply unique in our own areas, so why not encourage & support each other as apposed to wasting time in such small areas when there are much bigger things that need more urgent attention.

Together we are stronger and can try to make a change

BTW, I am not normally a late sleeper sometime work gets the better of me but nothing is more important than my amritvela

Bhai Baldeep Singh:

Dear Surinder, but why has my earlier comment been deleted?

If it has been inadvertently deleted I can understand, but if it has been intentionally deleted, it goes against fairness and decency that must govern any dialogue or a debate. Being the host of this page, you have the advantage to delete – but you must exercise restraint not to utilize this option!

If deliberate, it will show very dimly on your part.

And, nothing is more important than to discuss matters that are to do with the traditions of the guru’s court.

But it takes a lot of courage and humility to participate in such deliberations – I am sure you have them.

Once, you have replied to why my previous comment, to the one you have responded, have been deleted – I will then respond to your reply to that comment.

Surinder Singh:

Apologies Bhai Sahib, that was not at all intentional and somehow this morning got deleted I also see that Harpreets question dissapeared I’m not quite sure how this happened, once again sincerest apologies.

Bhai Baldeep Singh:

Not a problem! Fortunately I had saved a copy and will post the deleted post again later today when I have returned back to Delhi. I will also then attempt a reply to your last message – now that you have clarified that the deletion was unintentional.

Surinder Singh:

Much appreciated, thank you

Bhai Baldeep Singh:

This was my message that got deleted earlier today by the administrator of this page and am able to post it again. Was originally posted sometime yesterday:

Absolutely, you have every right to your way to connect your students. But as I had also asked you then (in France) – you are connecting them (this way) with what? If it is Gurbani Kirtan – it has had its own tradition and discipline; if it is Nada Yoga – it has had its own tradition and conventions: why use classical names to teach your own creation? Academically, I am afraid, it may show one in poor light and would raise doubts about one’s intentions – howsoever much positive and good they maybe, as in your case. You had told me that the monks did not use these mudras for the seven notes the way you are using either but that you had adapted these in your teachings – so I am taking this as your own creative contribution – fair enough.

To my knowledge, there is no Nada Yoga tradition outside India and even in India – this study was only confined to the North-Western Indian musical traditions – FYI.Nada Yoga is the rarest form of Yoga with a mere handful of people aware of its science. As it had come out of our France debate you have not studied this Yogic form formally from anyone.

This Yogic form had another name as taught to me by Bhai Sahib Ustad Arjan Singh Tarangar – an older name actually mentioned in the Yogic scriptures…! I wonder if you are already aware.

In any system of learning, dear Surinder, to first imbibe the memory of a discipline is paramount.For, one cannot suddenly assume being a neurosurgeon without learning in a medical school that actually produces such surgeons. One wouldn’t be familiar with the tools and procedures otherwise.If you want to create your own system, from your own inspiration – call it something else. Why use a name which is already taken? I know ‘nadayoga’ is a very catchy one and attracts people but this is the most abused names in the western world – every tom-dick-harry has been claiming to be a ‘Nada Yoga’ exponent. To see a handsome young SIkh standing in that line would be very painful one for me personally. One can’t even get an email or a website name if it is already in use…!

BTW, I see from the timing of your comment that you are a late night bird too!

Kamalroop Singh

Gurmukh NADANG Gurmukh Vedang Gurmukh reha samai………….. according to Guru Nanak, the consciously aware being…….intuitively knows the Nada, and the Veda, and is absorbed into the One…..23 hours ago · Like · 2 people ·

Bhai Baldeep Singh

There is problem with that translation – I am afraid…10 hours ago · Like · 1 person ·

Deepkhalsa Gagan Singh

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh ji 9 hours ago · Like ·

Gurvinderpal Singh

wow that was really awesome 😉 thank you Bhai Baldeep Singh Ji for opening the space of dialogue, and thank you Bhai Surinder Singh for answering. 8 hours ago · Like ·

Kamalroop Singh

Bhai Baldeep Singh ji, could you please enlighten us all with the correct translation. Thank you 6 hours ago · Like ·

Bhai Baldeep Singh

Not here where we are discussing other aspects. But just explore about the term Gurmukh and you will see what I am respectfully pointing towards. 4 hours ago · Like ·

Bhai Baldeep Singh

I would love to know about your learning from ‘the great yogis and teachers of this sacred art’. Many people who have known you for years call this a recent addition in your repertoire.I am myself yet to see any Nada Yoga information in your teachings or music.

And of course, I disagree with you when you say that this Yoga form exists around the world. In any case, I would appreciate you to supplement your saying so and provide examples so I may then do some cross referencing and research. I am a practitioner and this is a subject very dear to me. Let me share something rare with you – in Nada Yoga it is the posture of Nada and not merely of the human body. I had, to clarify this aspect, if you recall from France, asked you to sing and emulate a small pattern and you were not able to.

Mere chanting of mantras, gurbani or non-gurbani, is not Nada Yoga; in postures is not Nada Yoga – but this is how many people have packaged and sold to the innocent takers in the west over the last few decades. I had some very elaborate discussions even with Yogi Bhajan uncle regarding the subject. Subsequently, he asked me to share with his students – that was in the summer of 1996. But then of course, me being an old timer, a very few students withstood my torture and others left for easier pastures. Very few can face a reality check, isn’t it? Strange are ways that life meanders on…!

And this brings me to another questions: What do you mean by ‘practiced Guru’s way’? I had questioned this in the Rainsubai Kirtan in France – In the Guru Granth Sahib, no raga form is given and only raga names are. So unless one has learnt it from the Gur-Khalsa’s memory banks how can one connect a student with the Guru’s way? This remains my question – still unanswered.

For anyone to follow any Indian University’s Bachelor/Master Degree music syllabus and/or some other hotchpotched one and think of connecting with the gurus’, would be very unfair indeed.

And when you say, ‘developing the core of Nada Yoga is an important step’ I am quite intrigued and even when you say, ‘every teacher does have the power to incorporate diversity and innovation’. Innovations why not! But, one needs to be well versed with that which already exists and imbibe the memory of this stream of knowledge. One cannot just take a blank book and write Nada Yoga on the front and start writing innovations.

A teacher does have to right to add any mode to help his/her student but then they must name it something new or else one can be accused of plagiarizing.

The same is the story with the instruments: being made by people who have never studied how to make them and played by people who have not the actual playing methods – these must also to be called as innovations and must have new names.

As I had told you already that the history of these newer look alike starts now and that these have no relation to the instruments of the guru times except the names.

For example, the Saranda you play is a hybrid of ‘sarangi’ and ‘saranda’ and you play it the sarangi way.

I somehow fail to ignore this fact. You are welcome to continue to play it but it must not be called as anything to do with the history of guru’s musical tradition.

Same is the case with the raga forms. My critique to Baba Sucha Singh and Professor Tara Singh’s work and subsequently, what has happened in Punjabi University in the name of Gurmat Sangeet via my dear friend Gurnam Singh Phd is based on the fact that it is just the names of the raga – whereas their raga forms have been concocted by people who had no memory of the guru’s court. Only the names of Pandit Dilip Chandra Vedi and Bhai Avtar Singh Bhai Gurcharan Singh were used in order to legitimize this work. I wonder when we Sikhs learn not to call our own creations and innovations as the Gurus’ original.

I do appreciate your ‘respect for’ my ‘work’ and these questions are not to be mistaken as my criticism. I am a little custodian of the guru’s heritage and have been engaged in its revival for last 25-26 years. I have been troubled by factors coming in this genre and concocting newer histories and trying to legitimize themselves as messiahs of this near extinct tradition. As I had said earlier also in France, to teach gurbani kirtan is beautiful but one must learn it before teaching others. If one chooses to teach ones own music to which Gurbani is musically set, call it ones own music – not the gurus’.

Any discussion and debate which brings clarity in the field we should welcome. As, there is a dearth of responsible interaction in this field. And I appreciate the fact that have you have done so. Guru-ung-sung…!

about a minute ago · Like ·

Guruatma Khalsa

here i am, with all due respect, having this controversial WISH that everybody participating in and witnessing this exchange would be PROFOUNDLY DEAF (as am i challenged by that ‘condition’) for just the period of time in which they would be in the presence of the teacher who accepts the challenge to COMMUNICATE the ART AND EXACT SCIENCE OF THE NAAD to the deaf audience 33 minutes ago · Like ·

Madan Gopal Singh The point is rather simple.

If Professor Surinder Singh indeed has access to the Naad Yoga, he has to authenticate it by reference to either a) ancient texts, b) logically explained structures of practice and their pedagogical validation or c) if Prof Singh has acquired this knowledge from a practising yogi, the name and location of such a yogi.

To the best of my knowledge, this finger-before-the-nose Naad Yoga does not figure in any of the ancient texts pertaining to yoga even though in contemporary medicine this exercise is undertaken to determine how seriously a patient is afflicted with spondylosis,visual disorientation or epilepsy. In case, Professor Singh is not able to answer any of the three queries above, his claims would automatically become infructuous.

Rupinder Prakashbir-Singh Sandhu

When listening to Prof. Surinder Singh or others it’s simple: I’ll close my eyes and if i’m feeling it then THATS all I care about….none of the above argumentative stuff on who’s right and who’s not. The Mind…..Keep it pure, simple and keep the negativity out! Sat Nam!!8 hours ago · Like ·

Bhai Baldeep Singh

The question, dear Rupinder Prakashbir-Singh Sandhu Ji, is not who is right and who is wrong – it is what is right and what isn’t!

Are our interventions qualitative, responsible and ethical?

Are we ensuring that we are not holding the legacy of the guru’s tradition and its memory to ransom – and that too for very cheap? That is the question.

I also care about all that I see with my eyes closed. What I see is not very heartening at all – with open or with closed eyes…!

But please, do not mistake, and dismiss, it as any negativity.

a few seconds ago · Like · Tuesday 10 August 20101030am 1 person Nihal Singh likes this. ·

Desh Singh

LOL @ “what you feel in your heart”.4 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

Desh Singh

Bhai Bhaldeep is a well known sewadar who has inspired and uplifted people throughout the world. Any time Bhai sahib has something to say, I listen carefully…4 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

Ravinderpal Singh

Some of the postures look like martial arts techniques –

I always though that naad yoga is the manipulation of notes to corresponding chakra points within the body – but the field of naad yoga is so diverse that, that may simply be a raindr…op in relation to an ocean.

See More3 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

Rupinder Prakashbir-Singh Sandhu

I have removed my posts…..apologies if I have offended anyone.Sat Nam25 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·

Bhai Baldeep Singh

Dear Rupinder ji, I was not offended at all but thought I must clarify my position. I am sad that you felt like removing your comment – it was not necessary at all.

about a minute ago · LikeUnlike · go · LikeUnlike ·

Surinder Singh

 Dear Bhai Baldeep & Others partaking in this thread,

I would first like to offer apologies to you all to have kept you waiting for ‘more than 11 hours’, I am not as fortunate as you all to have so much disposable time to dedicate to such sma…ll matters, I have a family, businesses and a music school to run and take responsibility for. I spent my day yesterday focusing deeply on a healthy golf tournament and now I write to you from the airplane on my way to Spain, so I do hope that you enjoy my very timely response.

Before I open this topic and speak after more than 4 years of silence in respect of a fellow brother serving Guru, I would like to apologise to the sangat that comes across this thread as the intention is not to dishearten, offend or undermine anybody but simply to convey forward the truth.

I will do my utmost to respond to all of the points put forward by you all over the past day or so and hope that I will satisfy all of you.

I do not, have not and will not claim Naad Yoga or Gurmat Sangeet to be my property, it IS the art given by the Gurus and not by a ‘tradition’ therefore remains in the hands of Guru to share with his Sikhs. I talk not from books, not from ‘tradition’ but from my own experience, for me what I do is REAL and not just words.Bhai Sahib ji my teachers are not new additions to my repertoire, if you had ever bothered to ask about this I would happily have discussed this with you in the past, not that I need to prove anything to anybody but simply out of courtesy for the effort you are all putting into this thread I will happily provide this information for your peace of mind (although this is all available in my profile on my website www.rajacademy.com).

My Vidya Guru of Gurmat Sangeet, Naad Yoga, Musicology & Composition was the great Late Pandit Kharayti Lal Tahim of the Delhi Gharana, whom I studied with for 5 years under intense Guru-shishya.

Late Mahant Ajit Singh Ji was my teacher and inspiration who guided and introduced me to the legacy of Sikh instruments, Ayurveda and Santhiya of Gurmukhi.

Late Giani Najar Singh Ji was an invaluable guide who helped me to understand the practicality of Shabad Guru and Gurmat Sangeet.

Late Sardarni Dhan Kaur, my Grandmother, spiritual guide and the center of my faith.

Shri Surjeet Singh Aulakh a wonderful teacher who gave me the vidya of Tanti Saaj who is from the Naamdhari community, one of the only communities who preserved the instruments and traditions of Gurmat Sangeet. I did work very closely to look into authenticity and accuracy of the resources which I was privileged to have access to in Bhaini Sahib to contribute to my research and found that most things supported my previous findings.

I have one sole resource for all that I share, this resource is the most accurate and reliable source that I have encountered on my journey, My Living Guru, Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

My aim is simple NOT to preach, NOT to teach, but to help another to connect with Shabad Guru, through practice of living the bani and sharing whatever I have learnt through my own experiences.

I am sure that your next question will be about what I have experienced and that this is my own interpretation and not authentic Naad Yoga, so I will answer that question for you too.

From all of the wonderful people I been so fortunate to encounter in my life I have learnt many great lessons, they helped me to understand what Guru Nanak lived and how practical all of the Guru’s were.

When my test came in 1989 when I lay in a coma for 4 months unable to move or communicate with the outside world, everything that I had learnt about Naad Yoga became my only lifeline. It was Naad Yoga and the inspiration of Guru Nanak that gave me back my life!

For you Naad Yoga is something that is written down or passed down from one family to another for me its my life, it is real because I lived it, I felt it and I feel it everyday.

My Guru is Guru Granth Sahib, who teaches the essence of Naad Yoga in the 5th pauri of Japji, my Guru owns my body, mind, soul and all of my knowledge of naad. Naad comes from Gurprasad not tradition, if you haven’t lived it or felt it practically how can you teach it?

With all due respect to you and what you do, its important to note that we both come from two different fields, I am not an entertainer I work with inner-tainment, your stage performances appeal to many who wish to be entertained and you do your job well, but that is not my field. Gurmat Sangeet or Naad Yoga was not created with the intention to entertain, the purpose was simply to balance the inner being and connect with Akaal Purkh.

Naad Yoga is about following the hukam of the prescription, understanding the meaning of the bani, using the correct asana’s of the tongue, connecting your inner emotions with the mood specified, putting all of this together and then living it practically, that is what Naad Yoga is.

As much as I respect what you do, my belief’s are different to yours, for me there is no one or nothing bigger or greater than my Guru and in no instance at no cost would I ever dare to go against the hukam of my Guru, Guru Granth Sahib ji. Whatever is written in Guru Granth Sahib is true and pure, there is no higher authority and that is what is the Guru’s way to bow, surrender to the Master and obey the order.

‘I am a little custodian of the guru’s heritage and have been engaged in its revival for last 25-26 years’ – REALLY????

The Guru’s heritage is clearly written in black and white in the Guru Granth Sahib, so I ask you, ‘Oh Great Custodian of the Guru’s heritage where did Guru Arjan Dev Ji or Guru Gobind Singh Ji give you the authority or approval to change their bani?’

The sakhi of Guru Har Rai disowning his own 11 year olds son, Ram Rai for changing ONE word of Guru Nanak’s bani sends shivers down my spine, do you not fear the same?

Singing Raag Asa’s shabad in Adhana is NOT preserving, upholding or respecting Gurus Bani or Guru’s tradition, in fact what you do is say, ‘Hey, Guru Gobind Singh you didn’t know what you were doing, let me show you how it should be done!’

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhKUYzGIa1w&p=3634981C813F01C5&playnext=1&index=4

On the topic of authenticity and preservation I rest my point here!

On the topic of the instruments, Bhai Sahib you are very quick to endeavor in acts of name calling, to call the work of another ‘hybrid’ is quite inappropriate and unprofessional, had you have asked me on an adult level where I had accumulated my research and what where my findings which led me to fund the production of this model of Saranda I would have been delighted to share my notes with you. At this point I feel it unnecessary to do so as then I will stand a step lower on your level trying to prove that I am better or worse which is not what I do. Very simply the model of Saranda I play has been very well researched into taking all factual evidence on board. Nowadays people do funny things, they go to places like Balochistan, pick up the Pashtoon Sirinda and call it Saranda which then goes on to be sold as a decoy in aim to make thousands of dollars from innocent people who have a soft spot for Sikhi. Before you know it people will try to sell the Nepali sarangi and call it a Saranda.

I had and still have great love for Bapu Ji (Late Bhai Avtar Singh Ji), who was a huge inspiration and great support to me, he reciprocated my love when he accepted my small gift to him of a Taus and used the same Taus in his last days on stage to sing Guru’s praise.

If this model of Taus was also ‘hybrid’ as you call it then Bapu ji would never have supported it.

continued………..

See More 42 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·

Surinder Singh

continued from above……

My final topic where I will close this thread is based on our meeting in France, which you refer to so many times. You make claim that I was unable to answer your questions, however if you can recall correctly it was the other way around. I would like to repeat my 4 unanswered questions to you from France in hope to finally receive some answers:

1. Who gave you, your family and your ‘traditions’ the authority to change the title on the shabads in Guru Granth Sahib?

2. Who gave you the authority to insert additional words whilst singing the shabad taken from Guru Granth Sahib, for example, ‘Vaa Vaa, Eh Jee, Haa Jee’ etc?

3. The genre you represent is MugalE and a replication of the Dagar Brothers style, kirtan is supposed to be shabad pardhaan so why is it so difficult to understand the words of the shabad when you sing?

4. You claim your ‘lineage’ to date back to the Guru’s court then how is it that your lineage cannot decided which parkaar of the raags were rendered in the Guru’s court, for example why are there 4 different variations of raag Devgandhari promoted by your ‘tradition’?If your lineage were so strong then it would have been and should be very simple for you to explain what the Guru’s used.

In addition to these questions I have 2 additional questions for you:

5. If what I am doing is so wrong in your eyes, why do you not pick up a saaj and show me how to do kirtan the ‘right’ way?

6. You question my innovation in teaching where I use simple mudras to connect the participants, how is this different from your martial art/kathak display on the stage? Are your ‘moves’ part of the tradition? Is that how Guru Arjan Dev ji performed on stage?

Please view a video of Raag Bageshwari Mhala Bhai Baldeep Singh, Shabad written by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Asa on ang 404 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DXXkWqjtkA&feature=related

Let me clarify my opinion on your ‘traditions’:In this field only one of the following can exist, either MANmat (promoting whats fashionable or what you think) or GURmat (following what is clearly written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib).I do not wish to go down that road where you force me to question the authenticity of your lineage and tradition, with historic facts I can prove that the names you refer to were involved in the conspiracy against Gurmat Sangeet and were backed up by the East India Company, but we shall not go that way. The fact is that you are an artist and the requirement of a Kirtaneea/Naad Yogi is to be Sagal Jamati and conquer the mind and its ego, a mere Sidhi over a few notes can be accomplished very easily by anybody. Kirtan and the Naad of Nanak is not a kirya of performance but in fact practice.

I admire the work of Prof. Tara Singh and to step in the shoes of criticism to the work of such a great soul you yourself must climb over the wall of ego and appreciate what real work is.

The saviors of this tradition in the modern era were Naamdharis. They did have the facts and still do, I am not a Naamdhari but do have much respect for their contribution to Gurmat Sangeet and have very close ties with their community.Can you tell us what happened to their recordings done by Punjabi University Patiala of Rababi reets, could it be that they ‘disappeared’ and reappeared in your ‘traditions’?Please do not take these as allegations, they are not allegations they are based on facts and a very bitter truth.

Shri Surjeet Singh and Ranbir Singh Naamdhari are both members of my team and play a crucial role in project development; many times you have criticized and under valued our way of practicing Gurmat Sangeet. If our ways are so inadequate and inaccurate why is it that you request these same members of my team to accompany you on stages such as Harivalabh?

An Artist & a Kirtaneea:

In the court of Guru, a kirtaneea says to Guru that they will start their bandagi through kirtan with Gurprasad in the feet of Guru for Guru.

An artist would say ‘Yeh reet mere Dada Pardada ki hai, aap ki nazar karta hoon’

Naad is a tool and science given by Guru Nanak to communicate with your inner being, Naad Yoga is developing a capability of that science. Different schools, different methods but the result and goal is what matters. For me, whatever is written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the Guru’s way.

I simply follow and practice what was taught to me because it made sense to me and when I used it, it worked miracles that’s why I practice and follow this great science. The Sutra of Nanak’s Yog of Naad is to surrender.

I hope that my response is satisfactory to your needs.

I would request you (Bhai Baldeep Singh ji) to stop this battle of words, lets show the truth through our work and actions. If I am wrong in what I do let Guru decide, if you are wrong lets leave it in Guru’s hands. You do what you are good at and teach, the truth will surface and let people decide what they choose to. Our work should be strong enough to support our words and at the moment you are letting words get the better of you.

May the Truth Prevail and may the Fateh be to Waheguru alone.

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Thursday at 10:30pm · LikeUnlike ·

Harshdeep WaliaDear Bhai Sahib Surinder Singh ji,

VJKK VJKF!

I will choose not to comment on the duel here, however, there are a few items that you have mentioned that are truly disturbing and warrant me want me to stand up and speak….On one instance you have expressed your respect and support for Bhai Avtar Singh and how the acceptance of your Taus by him was a matter of honor for you, at the same time you are questioning Bhai Baldeep Singh’s genre which is of course his family/lineage’s, as ‘Mughlai/Dagar brothers style singing’. I have yet to come across of any genre in Hindustani Classical with that name making me conclude that you are actually questioning the place of Dhrupad in Gurmat Sangeet which this family prides itself in by preserving almost extinct Dhrupad Gurmat Sangeet reets. In other words, your argument is essentially rubbishing any Dhrupad compositions that any other Ragi has ever sung or continues to sing – which would include likes of Zakhmis or even contemporaries like Gurmit Singh Shant or Narinder Singh Banarasvale. If Bhai Avtar Singh Gurcharan Singh’s Keertan and specifically Dhrupad compositions were so inaudible or un-understandable then Sangat would not have been drawn to them like bees to a honey pot to listen to their Keertan. I also know it is not a true statement for someone like me who has been listening to their Keertan for almost 15 years now, have almost listened to every possible recording (live and studio) that is available under the sun, knowing that those recordings don’t even constitute 5% of their entire repertoire. Please keep in mind that this is the same parivar who is known to have preserved the reets in their original form over centuries, and continues to touch, move and inspire the Sangat even today – whether through Bhai Kultar Singh along with respected Bhai Swaran Singh or Bhai Baldeep Singh. Please be reminded that that this family been uplifting the Sangat through their Keertan for centuries (how can we forget the mention Bhai Jvala Singh or Bapu ji as he was known) and still continues to do so. I have personally experienced and witnessed numerous Sangat members with no training in music whatsoever, forget Hindustani Classical, having a melt down during or at the end of Keertan Darbar with Bhai Avtar Singh at stage, without knowing what caused it. If it wasn’t Guru’s Keertan or perhaps Guru himself, which had touched them then what was it?

Another item that is unacceptable is where you have accused the ‘tradition’ of plagiarism by lifting the Rababi Reets of Namdharis in collusion with Punjabi University. I am led to believe that you are hinting at Bhai Avtar Singh and Bhai Gurcharan Singh’s works of two volumes that were published by Punjabi university. On the contrary the truth is that it is their books that have been out of production/print by Punjabi University for years now for ‘some’ reason and Gurmat Sangeet premis continue to be devoid of that important documentation.

Another charge that you have put forth– where you are questioning the ‘lineage’ which again translates to ‘family’, whom you are accusing of working with East India Company to work against Gurmat Sangeet. You have mentioned this as ‘not an allegation’ whereas it is actually a one.

If you have chosen to bring the above items out as a ‘bitter truth’ then it is also your responsibility to lay out the facts in detail in front of the Sangat to allow them to examine them and come to a conclusion as opposed to leaving some ticklers, which if not explained well could be construed as rumor mongering. Above all, it is ever the more important to clarify since you have committed these arguments in print on a social media website for everyone to read. It wont be fair to leave this unaddressed on this site especially for the young impressionable minds who might choose to read this discussion in their quest to learn/research on Gurmat Sangeet. Even better will be to have this debate at a neutral website/blog, or via academic/research papers or live debate or a combination of all the above, so that the whole Sikh Sangat can witness it as opposed to having it on a private Facebook page.

Gurfateh ji,HarshdeepSee Moreabout an hour ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading… ·

Surinder SinghDear HarshdeepGuru Fateh

I appreciate your response along with your concerns, I would like to clarify a few simple points:Firstly it was not my choice to have this discussion here on facebook, I would of course prefer an academic platform b…ut the choice here was not mine.

Secondly there are a few points which have been misunderstood, when I say I respect and have great love for Bapuji (Bhai Avtar Singh ji) that is the truth and nothing in my response was or is directed to Bapuji. This post was for Bhai Baldeep Singh Ji and only he can fill in the blanks.Thirdly with regards to the Rababi reets of the Naamdharis, Bhai Baldeep knows exactly what I am talking about and this is nothing at all to do with Bhai Avtar Singh Ji’s book. I did know Bapu ji personally and his work is seperate to Bhai Baldeep Singh’s so I would appreciate if we can keep the two seperate and not confuse the sangat.

Finally I would like to say that truly my post was not in offence and if you read the entire thread with an unbiased opinion you will see things a little clearer.

This is not a public matter and I would have preferred direct dialect with Bhai Baldeep to discuss these matters properly, and now like you I await answers to the above questions to fill in some of the blanks.

Apologies for any offence to anybody

Prof. Surinder Singh

See More5 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·0041am 14/08/2010

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: