Nada Yoga Debate Part III

Kamalroop Singh

Dear Harshdeep Singh, Vahiguru ji ka Khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

In reference to your second paragraph above, the style of the Dhrupad reets in the Gurmat Sangeet performed by Bhai Avatar Singh ji, is clearly different compared to that of Bhai Baldeep Singh ji in the video clips provided above. I think that was why Prof. Surinder Singh ji posted the video clips up, to concrete his argument about the differences… and to point out that time to time new styles can creep into a tradition, for whatever reason.

I have read the arguments with a lot of interest, as I truely love the work by both of our Panths gifted musicians. In my opinion, based on my own study, it all comes down to what we define Gurmat Sangeet to be. Is our definition open or closed, and what do we base it on? For example if we were to base our definition on sola scripure, eg Adi Guru Granth Sahib ji. We would leave out quite a lot of shabads and Ragas in the Dasam and Sarbloh Granths, that feature in Gurmat Sangeet. Thirty or so Ragas, plus misrat ragas and Ragamala, in the Adi Guru Granth Sahib, and if we include a few hundred Ragas in Sarbloh Granth Sahib, then naturally the definition would be larger, as well as incorporating different singing style like taranas, etc.

I also feel that Prof. Surinder Singh has a solid point, that ultimately Gurmat Sangeet is there to deliever the Shabad to the Sangat, the taal, ragas, are secondry. On the other hand most Shabads in the Adi Guru Granth Sahib ji start with the Ragas first in the heading. There is also another point, many people base their opinions on Gurmat Sangeet based on Indian Classical musical systems of Ragas, this is clearly not the case for Gurmat Sangeet, there are also alot of influences of folk music, and Sufi music, infact. My conclusion is Gurmat Sangeet is syncretic, and it certainly is not exclusive, but is very much inclusive, and this inclusive nature of different sounds of that period give it a unique quality, in the wider Indian tradition of music.

Bhul chuka maff

Das Kamalroop Singh

5 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personRupinder Singh likes this. ·

18 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personAmarjeet Singh likes this. ·

Sunday at 1:11am · LikeUnlike · 1 person

Naam Hari Kaur


Dear Ones

i see you uphold the values of punjabis by not supporting each other and trying to pull each other down, BSS you are well known for this so you live up to your reputation.

BBS you have not changed since i encountered you in the European Yoga Festival when you made a mockery of yourself and indian sikhs on gurdwara stage, it was very heart breaking to witness this in the sangat. Many were offended with your conduct in the court of the Guru when you ‘tried’ but failed to belittle two accompanying musicians of the Professor who so gracefully withstood your insult and ego. Where will such acts of ego take you? I do not believe that ego is a carrier which will take you to the Guru, do you?

Your words are vicious and disrespectful, this is unacceptable for a person of your calibre, why is it that you cannot simply accept the ways of another? why do you always feel you must be right? Guru made all as individuals with different responsibilities, hence the job role will be different which means all will work in their own way according to divine instruction.

I love Naad and the respected Professor is a great teacher of Naad Yoga, whom one day i hope will be my teacher, his path is great and full of love, in your workshop i did not feel any greatness neither love. By insulting another teacher will this make you a better teacher? or is your insult a result of insecurity?

I am not knowledgeable, i am not known as you all are, but i do love my Guru’s bani and respect and obey that my master has set clear instructions to follow his hukam and as a Sikh to follow only that hukam is my duty! i have encountered only one other who conveyed the same love to Guru and upholds this… The Professor! The naad of the Guru can only be what is instructed by the Guru and no man can compete with that hukam!

You practice the Naad you have accumulated from various teachers, from an invisible lineage which is from the Gurus, how is it that you can use the cover of your teachings to overrule the Guru and pass this off as being acceptable?!It is not acceptable for a SIKH to do such a thing! in the court of a king this is classed as treason and you would be hung for such an act!

I was sad to see that you link yourself with the Great Avtar Singh Ragi and are a self proclaimed addition to his family lineage, if this is true why are you not to be found on his family tree on his website?

Dear BBS please keep your inappropriate comments and insults to yourself. Do not use them against people who are serving their destiny, if you must use them then use them on yourself each morning when you face the mirror and one day Guru will bless you too.

May Guru forgive you all for your ignorance and treachery

Bless you

2 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 person Preetinder Singh Dhindsa likes this. ·

Gurusevak Singh Khalsa

‎@Nam Hari -BBS’ Grandfather was the elder brother of Bhai Avtar’s Father, Baba Jawala Singh, so in fact their family lineage is the same. He is not on that website because that tree only shows the progeny of Baba Jawala.

Your comment that his is an “invisible lineage which is from the Gurus” is a direct insult and disgrace to Bhai Avtar, Bhai Kultar, as well as Bhai Baldeep. The family history is well documented back to the times of the Gurus, one needs only do a small amount of research. See More52 minutes ago · LikeUnlike · 3 peopleLoading… ·

Harkamal Singh Gursevak is absolutely right, just small correction however: Bhai Baldeep Singh’s Great grandfather, Baba Narain Singh was Baba Jwala Singhs eldest brother…however Bhai baldeep Singh’s grandfather Giani Bhagat Singh was also a student of Baba Jvala Singh and also his nephew…

28 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·Sunday at 1:11am · LikeUnlike · 1 person Keerat Kaur likes this. ·

Bhai Baldeep Singh

Dear Naam Hari,

I do not mind responding to you, howsoever awkward for me, but it does feel strange that when two ‘teachers’ are ‘talking’, someone who professes to yet-become-a-student has to put up such defense.

To put your record straight, I do have one reputation – that is to call spade a spade, to call trash as trash – whether it comes packaged as an Indian or non-Indian ‘Sikh’ in the present context. I am also known for not accepting nonsense as ‘real’.

It is a very trivial suggestion that because Surinder is a Punjabi, so I must accept and legitimize even nonsense! Not all Punjabi’s are bonkers; Gauging from your note, you must think very lowly of us Punjabi’s, ma’m!

It is interesting you again remind me of the Yoga festival even more. This whole misappropriated fact of the two accompanying musicians – which is a blatant lie (another one born out of insecurity perhaps, or what else!). There were a few inappropriate claims made by Surinder in the Gurus court, and it was my duty to address them, there and then. Not checking Surinder immediately would have tantamount to my legitimizing those falsities. Surinder had actually initiated the ‘debate’ with the same accusation at the Yoga Festival. The pity instead, dear Naam Hari, is that Surinder has not utilized the time since then to weed out his errors (for want of using a soft expression). He had very venomously attempted (successfully it seems seeing from your post) to mislead everyone sitting in the hall, that I somehow had endangered the careers of the two accompanists. Very creative! If you were present there – you may recall, that I had asked the two players: “You had problems with me yesterday?” The tabla player youngster had replied, “I am alright”. Then I had addressed, I think, Jasdeep, is his name, “No, not at all! It was an honour to play with you…”, he had replied. Surinder’s bluff had been called. But somehow he has continued to fool people into believing that what I did was wrong so much so that I should now be sent to the gallows! In your kingdom’s courts, it seems there is only prosecution without any consideration of facts and figures – no research. Straight sentencing seems to be the norm.

If you had done some research, you would have seen that in the family-chart that you linked, Bhai Gurcharan Singh’s name does not exist either. Does it mean that Bhai Jwala Singh had just one son? So Bhai Gurcharan Singh cannot be the real brother of Bhai Avtar Singh because his name does not, for whatever reasons of brevity, find a mention on that little chart, in spite of the fact that he was born to the same mother and father about ten and a half years before Bhai Avtar Singh was born? As Bhai Jwala Singh is the first name in the chart, according to your logic, he must have had no father or mother. Maybe he did one better than Christ even – came down from the sky! If only you had read my reply post to Surinder’s wild accusations where I had already detailed my family linkages.

Wake up folks! Standing for facts and truths is not considered an act of ego. Instead, hanging on blindly to lies and half-truths is.

Surinder is a student-like for me. He has used a lot of information from my lectures and teachings – information that is actually sourced from an extant analysis of the Gurus Kirtanic heritage. He has acknowledged that to me even at the same Yoga Festival, and to other common friends privately. So, it will be unreasonable for anyone to consider my comments as insults. Distorting histories of the Gurus-Sikhs is the worst sin anyone can do. This advice is a Guru-sent opportunity to change one’s conduct and doctrine.

Insecurity? You are very sweet and even poetic Naam Hari. Surinder said something about Nada Yoga that does not exist – I responded. He said many things untrue at the Rainsubai Kirtan at Yoga Festival – I responded and did my duty. Beyond that, I just do not care.

I can believe you that Surinder maybe a good teacher; that maybe a good husband – a father, a son and a friend, etc. This is not about that. In my own little world, I am respected and loved too – and, I am known to reciprocate a fair amount back too . . !

See More6 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·

Tuesday at 3:33am · LikeUnlike · 4 peopleAmarjeet Singh, Nihal Singh and 2 others like this. ·

Harpreet Singh Sahni

dear naam hari kauri think we should not interfere between these 2 teachers until and unless we have complete knowledge of the subjects…

Tuesday at 8:54am · LikeUnlike · 1 person Amarjeet Singh likes this. ·

Harshdeep Walia

Naam Hari ji – Please do not hijack this debate by injecting race (Punjabis!!!!!!) and making it more personal. As an audience to the debate one has to ensure that the focus continues to be on the content and abstain from making comments on personalities and likes. Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion but imagine every Tom, Dick and Harry rising up on Facebook and taking pot shots like you have done and expecting Bhai Baldeep Singh and Bhai Surinder Singh to respond! Of course that is the problem with blogs like these where you dont have a moderator who can facilitate the debate. If you have research work and understanding of the subject matter please share and contribute to allow the experts to respond appropriately and have Sangat benefit from that knowledge as well. Your research by the way pointing to the website has already been responded in earlier posts and exposed your depth of your knowledge on the subject matter. Your unfortunate posting and comments were totally uncalled for, deplorable and in poor standing. See More16 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading… ·

Guramrit Singh

Dear Surinder SinghI have been listening yr kirtan and reading your comments on facebook..You always say sangat to do the Kirtan in NIRDHARIT RAGS and use the instruments given by the GURUS..You say that it is MANMAT when anyone sings shabads in any other rags or use any other instrument..I have listened your cd PARTAL and MERE MAN ..Now Mr Singh will u kindly tell us which GURU has used or ordered to use FLUTE and SAROD..Which kind of MAT is this.. You yourself are not doing that what you are telling others to do..What i should think about this? Is this all fake what you preach…. See More7 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

Amarjeet Singh

‎@ Dear Guramrit Singh ji, no hijacking please read Harshdeep Walia’s last comment, a very thoughtful one indeed.And regarding your comment about usage of flute and sarod, they are all a welcome (A/ my little knowledge) as they are ‘woodw…ind’ and ‘string’ instruments respectively, i.e. the 2 essential familial components out of the ‘5’ that make the ‘panch-shabad’, the platform on which the kirtan should be sung IDEALLY. P.S. I am well aware of the fact that the above question was addressed to Prof Surinder Singh ji, but dont expect him to answer you here and distract him from the main topic under discussion. Please try some other photo for asking your question(s) or send him a personal message for your clarification of your doubts.

Thanks and regards

Amar Jeet Singh

7 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

Bhai Baldeep Singh‎

@ Harshdeep Walia, Amarjeet Singh and Harpreet Singh.

If everyone can read these posts, why must they be not allowed to share their respective views. Naam Hari Kaur, for example, addressed me and I took time out to respond to her. This being busy would be a silly joke to apply here. On one hand, I am a student of Gurbani Kirtan, and on the other I want to recuse from answering questions or issues coming from the other students or enthusiasts by dismissing them as mere distractions..! Yes, sometimes platforms such as these can bring forth some strange content but these may please be met with some understanding.I think many people are attempting to be self-appointed moderators – such an urge may please be domesticated a bit, if I can say so…!

I think you may want to check the meanings of ‘panch shabad’ or ‘panch naad’, which you may actually meant. ‘Normal’ translations have such meanings but when you will get a chance to meet some of the ‘taksali’ exponents, you will find that the actual meanings are different.See More5 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

Amarjeet Singh‎@ bbs ji, interesting to get that comment from you sir! Nothing to beat it, i mean when the teacher/guide/knowledgeable person like yourself is himself ready to address things which may be distantly associated with the topic under discussi…on, i would simply love it, because that would only mean to me a chance for me to increase the spectrum of my knowledge sire!!!With warm regardsAmarSee More2 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

Surinder Singh

Dear Baldeep

I am glad to see that you are all entertaining yourselves in my absence and more humor is surfacing.

As I mentioned in my previous posts my time is quite limited with my seva as my priority as I am a man of action and few words….

Your statements grow deeper and deeper in ridicule and amuse me greatly (which I appreciate), you may take my responses as you wish and judge me or slander me as much as you like it really makes no difference to me whatsoever.

I am simple man with a simple hope – to live and serve my Guru, Guru Granth Sahib!Our paths, beliefs and practices are VERY different, I follow only my Guru and what is written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib is my tradition and heritage as a SIKH. I am not a self proclaimed “Master of Naad Yoga’ I am a Sikh of Guru Granth Sahib and am open to improvement and corrections as I am student and not a GURU. I have no shame in updating my knowledge and pray that I will continue to do this with Guru’s blessings.I stand by the truth and have no need to lie, I do not tell lies, do not listen to lies and do not respect liar’s and will not tolerate lies being stamped on my head!

You have made many cheap accusations and called me quite a few names from a liar to a madman, I accept in my own way I may be a little mad as I love my Guru deeply and will not compromise the teachings, for many this is madness, this category of madness I will accept with honor, so thank you.

To clarify one important point in simple and plain English, NONE of my questions are directed to anybody other than yourself and especially NOT towards Bhai Avtar Singh ji! The work of respected Bhai Avtar Singh Ji is very very different from yours, and I cannot put the two in the same category. For me the family lineage is simple and clear, Bhai Kultar Singh is carrying the lineage of Bhai Avtar Singh and his forefathers and no other! The topic of the Rababi reets is nothing at all to do with the book of Bhai Avtar Singh, this was and is a question to you.None of my opinions, statements or questions are based on hearsay. I have made my decisions based on personal contact with well respected individuals who were able to provide the facts which were more than sufficient to support my above statement. You are free to twist my words and make what you like of them but I cannot address this topic in simpler terms.

I do have respect for you as a musician in your own field, but you cannot make such false statements and label others as liar’s, I am not a student of yours! I have never sat with you to learn! Our ‘discussion’ in France was out of politeness and in my own ignorance in hope that maybe we could be on the same page and try to support and work with one another, but I was wrong to hope such things.On the same topic of France Jasdeep Singh and Gurpal Singh were disheartened at your rudeness and when you addressed them, out of mere politeness they wished not to be as disrespectful in return so they told you things were fine. Put yourself in the shoes of two young men, one in his teens the other in his early 20’s, if you were invited to join a musician on stage who tried to embarrass you in the court of Guru with a hall full of sangat, wouldn’t you be disheartened? Anyway that’s not as pressing as other matters I would like to raise, simply you do know that happened in France and do not pass it off as lie on my behalf.On the topic of lie’s, “it was you who had come to me – since I am actually the one who handcrafted these instruments after having traced the last remaining luthier / instrument maker (who had made instruments until 1949), Gyani Harbhajan Singh.”Actually, NO I did not come to you as you claim! I went to the people who had preserved the tradition of Tanti Saaj, a big part of my findings came from respected Mahant Ajit Singh ji as well as the Naamdhari community in Bhaini Sahib where I spent time amongst other places conducting heavy research into this area.

I have to say I did like your statement which I supposedly made to you: “Bhai Sahib, I am an institution with 650 students and you are just an individual – I will destroy you…!” I do remember the don-like venom in your eyes – indeed very deadly, I must compliment…!

This I found very amusing, you know as much I do that no such statement was made especially not in such a context, but if you feel the need to give a particular impression of me to the sangat you are free to do so, it makes no difference to me at all.

You very boldly made comments on my teacher based on hearsay from people like Yash Paul, that is all your choice to go by what people say. I know my teacher very well I spent a lot of time with him and I know what he taught me, I have no need to justify his knowledge to you. Only the student of a teacher will know what the teacher is a master of, a friend or colleague will not have access to the same knowledge, but you already know this which makes your statement very trivial.

You read my statements as contradictions, you are free to continue doing so, I will not spend or waste any further time in such matters. As I stated previously if what I am doing is wrong then show me the ‘right’ way through your work not your words!

You outwardly claim yourself to be sole preserver and reviver of this rich heritage Call yourself what you like, but this does not make you a higher authority than Guru Granth Sahib. There are many people working in the same field, according to you they must all come and bow to you before stepping in their service to Guru as you are sitting on the Gaddi of heritage, this is very funny.

I also think its time to wake up and stop hanging on to the half-truths as you say.I will not continue this topic here as you went very far away from the subject in hand and once again failed to answer my questions, you did not answer my questions in France neither here in this thread, so its clearly a waste of time.If you wish to continue this ‘conversation’ you are welcome to come and visit me anytime you are in London and it would be my pleasure to host you as a guest and then continue this topic in an adult manner.

None of my comments were meant in disrespect, as I stated above I do have much respect for your work as a jori player and will continue to recommend you as the shaan of the amritsari baaj to my students and others.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

about an hour ago · LikeUnlike ·

Bhai Baldeep Singh

A correction, from your quote I saw that there was a word missing, which totally changes the meaning – it is to be read as (in bold):

“Regarding the instruments, more accurately, it was you who had TO come to me – since I am actually the one… who handcrafted these instruments after having traced the last remaining luthier / instrument maker (who had made instruments until 1949), Gyani Harbhajan Singh.”

I request you all to please excuse me for this typo, which seems to suggest that Surinder came to me, which is not the case…

7 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·

updated at 01.21 am 19/08/2010

Guramrit Singh

Surinder Singh Ji will i get the answer of my quest. I think my quest. is not too big that you will have to spend the whole day for it..

3 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 person Loading… ·

Preetinder Singh Dhindsa

Guru Fateh,

@ Guramrit Singh”..You say that it is MANMAT when anyone sings shabads in any other rags or use any other instrument..” i want to correct your misunderstanding, i have been on many tours with prof. ji, and he has never said that it is manmat to use any other instrument other than the guru’s. It is ,ofcourse, manmat to use any other raag other then the prescribed one, but it is not manmat to play an instrument that is not our guru’s. Prof. ji encourages the sangat to pick these instruments over others because its our guru’s heritage, but he also says that there is nothing wrong with any other instrument to be used in Gurmat sangeet. I hope that answered your question.

Bhul Chuk Maf

3 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

Guramrit Singh

dear preetinder singhi think dear u have been surinder singh said at many stages that harmonium is the instrument of english and we r doing manmat by using this singh this means what prof is doing is gurmat wheather he uses flute,sarod etc…

See More8 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·

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Surinder Singh

Dear Guramrit Singh

You have simply misunderstood what i say and have said about tanti saaj. Just to clarify, i clearly state the MOST important thing is to follow the hukam as specified by the Guru’s, which means to follow the title raag. The instruments are tools used to accompany your voice, i do not condemn the harmonium or other non-Sikh instruments. Harmonium cannot justify the musical delicacies required to render the raags therefore i do not teach harmonium in my school. I do say that we as Sikhs should try to use the Sikh instruments (Rabab, Saranda, Sarangi, Taus, Dilruba, Jori) that have been blessed by Sikh Guru’s to sing kirtan, and all of these instruments are taught in my school along with other non-Sikh instruments.The instrument to sing kirtan is not so important, more importance is given to the hukam being obeyed or disobeyed. I hope this clarifies your confusion.

39 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·

Madan Gopal Singh

‎1)   The good professor seems obsessed with the idea of ‘entertainment’, ‘humour’, ‘ridicule’, ‘amusement’ that the dissenters’ questioning of his position evokes in him. Anyone disagreeing with him is sought to be painted as some sort of a performing monkey.

He is quick to hide behind self-righteous rhetoric of ‘seva’ (implication: ‘others are into self-aggrandisement’), ‘action’ (implication: ‘others are merely whiling away their time)’, ‘paucity of time’ (implication: ‘others have merely come to God Almighty’s wedding procession’) etc. One gets a distinct sense of growing desperation in the Professor’s arguments that are beginning to wear even thinner than before.

His ploy is simple: to deflect attention decisively away from the uncomfortable question that was raised concerning his propagation of what he terms as the Naad Yoga and also uses with impunity in his classes for the benefit of his, shall we say ‘gullible’, students.

The question remains unanswered. Naad, he says with touching incredulity, is all pervasive. Thanks a ton for this bit of stale news. The question, however, is whether Naad Yoga (and not just ‘Naad’ my dear good Professor) is equally all pervasive. The conflation of ‘Naad’ with ‘Naad Yoga’ fails to take off even though this act of fudging came breathtakingly close to succeeding. There is little hope that his questioned and possibly questionable wisdom will ever get credibly installed.See More37 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·

Madan Gopal Singh‎

2)   His other strategies of deflection are simple – prevarication and emotional blackmail.

He invokes Sri Guru Granth Sahib as his ultimate defense. He avers that he ‘lives and serves his Guru’. Is he trying to insinuate that others – especially those questioning his position/s – do not?

He sharpens the focus further by saying that what makes ‘his beliefs and practices VERY different’ from others is that he ‘only’ follows ‘his Guru and what is written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib’. That, he claims, is all the tradition and heritage he knows and that that is one reference that he would not deviate from. This incidentally is a slight improvement upon his earlier position where he negated the very possibility of tradition as against ‘his understanding’ of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. He deserves our gratitude for at least admitting the term ‘tradition’ howsoever willy-nilly into this uneven and one-sided debate.

On the face of it one cannot fight with such impeccable defense. How can you if the opponent is invoking Sri guru Granth Sahib in his defense? This is a hugely emotional and sensitive issue and one has to tread here with extreme care.

However, if one reads the good professor’s proclamation of his steadfast adherence to Sri Guru Granth Sahib a little closely, one is bound to be amazed at the enormity of the claim he is making.See More36 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·

Madan Gopal Singh

‎3)   The first question, then, could be:

What is the guarantee that the good professor has indeed understood the Sri Guru Granth Sahib correctly? In other words, how does one ascertain if the good professor has understood the spirit and meanings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in exactly the same way as the Gurus themselves had intended? This presumption and self-certification on the part of the good professor sets off a dangerous trend where just about anyone can get up and say: “I am closer to the Guru than you are. My practice is only His as against yours which is your own.”

Thereafter, he goes into a hyper-emotional spiel about how much he hates lies. But what about prevarications, my dear good professor? You did not utter a word about them. We are waiting for your enlightened response.

35 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·

Madan Gopal Singh‎

4)   The emotional spiel deepens even further when the good professor literally and publicly disinherits Bhai Baldeep Singh from the family lineage of the Bhai Avtar Singh. Now this is indeed quite messy and one wouldn’t want to get into this except to make two brief points which have already been made here:

  1. a) As for legitimacy, Bhai Baldeep Singh is a direct descendent of Baba Narain Singh who was the elder brother of Baba Jwala Singh who happens to be Bhai Avtar Singh ji’s father. So your attempt to question the familial legitimacy of Bhai Baldeep Singh collapses without a whimper.
  2. b) As for creative legitimacy, it is a moot point if even Bhai Kultar Singh sings the Gurmat Sangeet in exactly the same way as Bhai Avtar Singh did. All that you need to do is to sit down and listen to a recording in which the two are singing together and you will know without much effort what I am trying to underline here. And I have a feeling that Bhai Sahib Bhai Avtar Singh also did not sing in exactly the same way as his father, the legendary Baba Jwala Singh did.
  3. c) As far as I know Bhai Baldeep Singh followed diverse musical sources – included in them Bhai Sahib Arjan Singh Tarangar, Bhai Gurcharan Singh, Bhai Avtar Singh, Ustad Rahim Fahimuddin Daagar, Ustad Mohd Hafiz Khan Khandehre Talwandiwale, Maharaj Thakur Singh amongst many others. You of course did not miss the opportunity to ridicule some of these Ustads as representing the Mughalia strand in music which is indicative of a regrettably impoverished understanding of the classical music that developed in South Asia.
  4. d) The diverse sources and a joyous celebration of plurality is at the very core of the Sikh ethos. Not for nothing did the fourth Guru, Shri Arjan Dev ji, compiled the Sri Guru Granth Sahib that reached out to people from across the sub-continent spanning from Bengal to Gujarat, from Punjab to Maharashtra. This lesson has unfortunately been forgotten by a few who claim to act suo moto as the interpreters of the Holy Word.

Thursday at 7:40pm · LikeUnlike · 4 peopleNadar Nihal Singh Khalsa, Nihal Singh and 2 others like this. ·

Nirvair Kaur Khalsa

har biant hau mit kar varnau kiaa jaanaa hoe kaiso re. Karau benati satgur apune mai moorakh dehu updeso re. With my little rabbit ears antennae I sit and attempt to tune in to the Guru’s station. Sometimes I think the reception is pretty good. If all I have is my little black and white set that receives a few local channels I don’t even know the image is a little fuzzy. One day I visit my friend who has a high definition set with a satellite dish and a subscription to the tradition network. My friend is not always the easiest person to hang out with, but I love visiting his house. I never knew such images were possible, and there are hundreds of channels available. I have heard rumors that 3D may soon be possible.

18 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 4 people

Bhai Baldeep Singh‎

(From Jodhpur, Rajasthan).

  1. “I will not continue this topic here as you went very far away from the subject in hand, so its clearly a waste of time.”

(Your quote from Thursday at 12:05am)……

From the subject, dear Surinder, you were way off the mark from the very beginning.

Your very first answer to Amarjeet that this mudra/posture or whatever-you-have-named-it of the musical note SA was far away from any musical reality.

Then your shoddy and evasive defense took us even farther away.

I asked about Nada Yoga you spoke of Nada. Then you suggest, ‘All of us have our ways to make students get connected, as we had our talk in France, this is some thing i’ve learned from monks and i use this in my classes’. (August 7 at 3:53am).

You had told me that the monks did not use these for the seven notes – so on what basis have these been incorporated and that too as ‘Nada Yoga’?

When you do not know what Nada Yoga is then how do you know whether “it exists across the world” in different names? Which ‘names’ professor dear, would you ever so kindly enlighten your audience about these Yogic forms? That would be some discovery! Then you described Nada Yoga as that which “connects the soul beyond dialect and physical constraints its the only yoga which explores inner freedom and therefore the most universal.”Did you mean beyond ‘languages’ professor? And, what are these physical constraints? How does one explore this “inner freedom”?

Then you say, “Incorporating some physical postures to strengthen focus on the source of a sur does not change neither effect the core of Indian Naad Yoga, in fact strengthens the knowledge within the student”. What is ‘Indian’ Nada Yoga? What is its core? If you are a master of Nada Yoga, I am a student. Answer these and you never know, I might come and study with you!Where is the source of the ‘sur’? No hearsay or assumptions please…“Strengthen the knowledge” is a strange expression too.

One has to be a real student of any particular field, in this case Nada Yoga, before gaining any right or authority whatsoever to bring in changes or modifications.

  1. How is what you teach the “Guru’s Way”? What do you mean by saying “developing the core of Naad Yoga” and how is it an important step? Are you suggesting that in the past, when your developments were not in vogue, the masters had no tools to teach? – “best suit the learning of the students”what does this mean?

“Together we are stronger and can try to make a change”

(August 8 at 6:49am) What “change” are you trying to make Surinder? For the last few days, we have been ‘together’ on this page – and it is evident from the quality of exchanges, how strong ‘we’ are !

III. “My Guru is Guru Granth Sahib, who teaches the essence of Naad Yoga in the 5th pauri of Japji, my Guru owns my body, mind, soul and all of my knowledge of naad. Naad comes from Gurprasad not tradition, if you haven’t lived it or felt it practically how can you teach it?” you said. (August 12 at 5:35pm)

How is the essence of Nada Yoga taught in the fifth pauri of Gur Nanak Dev’s Jap?And if your logic of ‘Tradition’ and ‘Gurprasad’ were true, there would have been no Guru Granth Sahib either. Initially, there was one Guru and Nine Sikh gurus one after another and then the gur-sikhs gur-khalsa i have told you that memory of ragas sung was with by merely referring to gurbani get nothing more than name. these are some very answers provided strangely kept clear.

You say your authority is Guru Granth Sahib alone and no one else – where did you get the raga forms Surinder. You have avoided answering this question.

And then this ‘dakhani’ stuff – did the Gurus sing the particular Bani in the manner you sang in one of your albums? How are you so sure that this kind of music existed when the gurus traveled down south? Isn’t it bogus what you have produced in your albums? Weren’t you singing a form of music (Karnatic Sangeet) that you have never learnt and suggesting that this is how it is to be sung because the Gurus sung like this?

If this subject had been ever so dear, you would have been excited in exchanging notes and seeing and updating notes from a ‘colleague’. If you can be so ridiculously wrong in claiming ‘facts’ about my familial lineage, how can I take your other claims as ‘truth’?

 IV. What is a “mood specified”? Are you translating ‘raga’as a mood?

Your – “Naad Yoga is about following the hukam of the prescription, understanding the meaning of the Bani, using the correct asana’s of the tongue, connecting your inner emotions with the mood specified, putting all of this together and then living it practically, that is what Naad Yoga is (August 12 at 5:35pm)” – is the mustiest explanation I have ever come across so far! It shows how far you are from the topic you are, dear Surinder.

V. You said, “I do not wish to go down that road where you force me to question the authenticity of your lineage and tradition, with historic facts I can prove that the names you refer to were involved in the conspiracy against Gurmat Sangeet and were backed up by the East India Company, but we shall not go that way.”

Please substantiate this claim, dear Professor, else the stain of being you being a liar will not get erased!

And then you have the propensity to claim that my ancestors are somehow different than those of Bhai Avtar Singh Ji and Bhai Gurcharan Singh !

VI. And please, this one too:

“Can you tell us what happened to their recordings done by Punjabi University Patiala of Rababi reets, could it be that they ‘disappeared’ and reappeared in your ‘traditions’? Please do not take these as allegations, they are not allegations they are based on facts and a very bitter truth.” 

 Which traditions are you talking about? The only family elders associated with the Punjabi University were my granduncles, namely Bhai Avtar Singh Bhai Gurcharan Singh; the pioneering work done by them is the only one that any of our family elders have produced. {In addition, at the age of (then) 94 my elder granduncle, Bhai Gurcharan Singh, (now 96) has written 214 compositions in 50 ragas at my humble request. I am in the process of editing this monumental book these days.}

42 minutes ago · LikeUnlike · 

 59 minutes ago · LikeUnlike · 

Bhai Baldeep Singh

VII. Bhai Kultar Singh, the son of my grandfather’s younger first-cousin, is in the 12th generation. Generation wise I am in the 13th although he came and began his serious studies with his illustrious father, Bhai Avtar Singh, at least 12 years after I began my studies, although, he was a child protege himself. Apart from being an uncle-nephew bond, we are also very close friends. The sooner you learn our familial facts the better it would be and save you a lot of embarrassment in the ‘future’.

IX. One another fact – in 1991, my turban of disciplehood was offered, as per the instructions of my elder granduncle Bhai Gurcharan Singh, at the feet of Bhai Arjan Singh Tarangar who was one of the teachers of my granduncles, that made me my granduncles’ youngest Gurubhai (classmate).

X. I still remember your threat, which was something like: “Bhai Sahib, I am an institution with 650 students and you are just an individual – I will destroy you…!” I do remember the don-like venom in your eyes – indeed very deadly, I must compliment…! (Me on August 15 at 1:08am)

You had this to respond with (on Thursday at 12:05am): “This I found very amusing, you know as much I do that no such statement was made especially not in such a context, but if you feel the need to give a particular impression of me to the sangat you are free to do so, it makes no difference to me at all.” 

”What ‘context’ would that be Surinder? This ludicrous attempt at erasing my name from my family lineage, calling me just a Jori player and ignoring other facts associated with me – Is this how you have planned to “destroy” me Surinder?

XI. There are few working in the ‘field’, there quite a few who had a very checkered record of distorting the field but, very few are left from whom people can learn about the Kirtan of the gurus. My association with a lot of elders who were the last remaining story tellers and memory-bearers places me in that last bracket. And yes, undeniably, when people are tired of their own, they will have to come at the doorstep of the memory-bearers, whosoever they may be at a given time. Some very fascinating new memories are already being written – so do not be surprised if these bearers come from places in EU, Australasia, Far-East or the Americas.

XII. Where did you learn this term “Amritsari Baaj”…?

Must have been hearsay – as I do not remember having directly taught this to you!

And, this “Raga Ramkali of the Jogis”, “Asa being the favorite of Guru Nanak” etc…

Aren’t these my quotes that have been a part of your public addresses?

And, for example, that Raga Asa in 13 beats, “Satnam, Sri Waheguru Sahib Ji” from Darbar Sahib, Amritsar….?

2 seconds ago · LikeUnlike ·

Saturday 21 August 2010 04.27am 

Keerat Kaur, Sotantar S. Khalsa, Guramrit Singh and 2 others like this. · 

 Ravinder Singh Sambi

I am a doctor by profession and am the eldest grandson of Bhai Gurcharan Singh Ji Ragi, the elder brother of Bhai Avtar Singh Ji Ragi. If all this awareness of the mind and soul is related to my family and our lineage then elders please excuse me if I say a few words.Whether it be Baba Jawala Singh Ji Ragi or Baba Narain Singh ji’s Family, in the end it is one and only one. From childhood I have never found any difference in action or thought about both my grandfathers- Bhai Gurcharan Singh Ji Ragi or Bhai Avtar Singh Ji Ragi. In mind and spirit they have been one. Similarly, someone quoting that Bhai Baldeep Singh Ji is not my family, is wrong. I strongly believe that if I have same feelings for my grandfathers then so does Bhai Baldeep Singh Ji and he has actually shown it more than me. He has followed our family traditions and actually made my grandfathers really proud that this long lasting tradition is going to live another generation. In the end, I would say Family is family!!!!!!!!

about an hour ago · LikeUnlike · 4 people  · 

Kultar Singh 

Dr. Ravinder Singh Sambi ( We call him Sonu, with Love ) : I like your comments. Waheguru Ji bless you and our family of Keertaniyaas.

9 minutes ago · LikeUnlike · 

 Tuesday at 12:44am · LikeUnlike · 2 people

Bhai Baldeep Singh

This is so funny or rather ridiculous, that you, my cousins, have had to give me a familial certificate..!

What would people who do not even know these simple facts, of a family who has served the guru’s traditions for centuries, know about the tradition of Gurbani Kirtan itself…?

Wednesday at 5:05pm · LikeUnlike · 1 person Ravinder Singh Sambi likes this. ·

Bhai Baldeep Singh

The following definition is given at the link below:

 “What is Nád Yoga?”…

“Yoga is an ancient technology consisting of inner and outer postures, breathing and meditation techniques, and a specific way of life, which culminates in a state commonly referred to as enlightenment, realisation, awakening, liberation. A yogi has reached a permanent experience of Oneness of Self, God and Creation. Today, yoga is mainly practiced because of the manifold beneficial side-effects in terms of holistic health. The word “yoga” translates as “union”.” 

 “The goal of yoga can be reached in countless ways. One of them is Nád Yoga, the yoga of sound. The ancient scriptures say that the faculty of listening is the most comprehensive and powerful of all five senses. In the cycle of birth and death, it is the first one to appear and the last one to disappear. Nád Yoga exclusively uses sound, tone, rhythm, singing and listening in order to awaken the consciousness. The archetype of the Nád Yogi is Guru Nanak, a spiritual rebel, poet and leader who found full enlightenment by singing the praises of the Creator, whom he found to permeate the whole Creation (“Ik Ong Kaar”).” 

I have recently learnt that there is an MA being taught now..!

There are major problems with the claims on Nada Yoga and Nada Yogi (being Guru Nanak) by Surinder during his ‘arguments’ with me and then the packaged reality also found on his sites. If there is anything credible in this – I can recommend to some of the highly respected scholars of the field at the renowned Benaras Hindu University. But then, in responsible institutions mere claims do not sell as they easily do in an open market with unassuming customers. One must substantiate all information that one brings on the table.

Wednesday at 6:44pm · LikeUnlike ·

Nirvair Kaur Khalsa 

Guru Nanak is an archetype now?

Yesterday at 1:41am · LikeUnlike ·

Madan Gopal Singh

I’m reminded of this popular couplet – to be sung as per Heer Waris specifications – in Punjabi:

ਫੱਤੂ ਜੇਠ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਤੇ ਅਲੀ ਦੇਵਰ

ਡੁੱਬ ਮੋਈਆਂ ਓਹ ਭਰਜਾਈਆਂ ਨੇ

……although it is not easy to translate the above, I shall nonetheless make an attempt in the light of the new revelations made above:

with teachers like Matharu

you are already sunk

without stepping into

even the shallowest of waters!

The good professor’s heroics are comparable only to people offering post-graduations in English literature without knowing who Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Austen, Wordsworth, Keats, Dickens, Eliot, Yeats were.

Yesterday at 7:10am · LikeUnlike ·

Harkamal Singh

Is there going to be any rebuttals to the points made by madan gopal singh and bhai baldeep singh or is this debate settled then?

6 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

Bhai Baldeep SinghWhat is settled Harkamal…?  There are at least two (following) claims made by this gentleman, which are grave and are already being looked into by concerned experts. I can, and have ignored a lot of nonsense but the following will not be:   1. “I do not wish to go down that road where you force me to question the authenticity of your lineage and tradition, with historic facts I can prove that the names you refer to were involved in the conspiracy against Gurmat Sangeet and were backed up by the East India Company, but we shall not go that way.”

. . . . . . & . .  “Can you tell us what happened to their recordings done by Punjabi University Patiala of Rababi reets, could it be that they ‘disappeared’ and reappeared in your ‘traditions’?

Please do not take these as allegations, they are not allegations they are based on facts and a very bitter truth.”

(Surinder) August 12 at 6:03pm   2.“To clarify one important point in simple and plain English, NONE of my questions are directed to anybody other than yourself and especially NOT towards Bhai Avtar Singh ji! 

The work of respected Bhai Avtar Singh Ji is very very different from yours, and I cannot put the two in the same category. For me the family lineage is simple and clear, Bhai Kultar Singh is carrying the lineage of Bhai Avtar Singh and his forefathers and no other! 

The topic of the Rababi reets is nothing at all to do with the book of Bhai Avtar Singh, this was and is a question to you.

None of my opinions, statements or questions are based on hearsay. I have made my decisions based on personal contact with well respected individuals who were able to provide the facts which were more than sufficient to support my above statement. “

(Surinder) August 19 at 12:05am

See More  6 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·

Ravinder Singh Sambi 

Well done veerji, that’s the spirit of speaking the truth despite all odds!

We all (family) are with you.

Monday at 9:13pm · LikeUnlike ·

Madan Gopal Singh

I don’t quite know if you, BBS jio, are contemplating to do that but Prof Matharu’s posts are brazenly libelous and invite legal action on at least three counts but the one about your family’s collusion with the colonial rulers is an invidious insinuation and should not be allowed to pass unchallenged legally.

2 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

Bhai Baldeep Singh

MadanGS Ji,

I have made a serious note of this “East India Co.” as well as the Pbi Univ one – these are scandalous in intent and distastefully worded. And I am putting it mildly. Surinder has spoken a lot of unmusical and unethical rubbish which I have chosen not to bother about.His is a style that betrays hypocrisy at its worst..!

For eg., on August 12 at 6:03pm, he so excitedly wrote:

“1. Who gave you, your family and your ‘traditions’ the authority to change the title on the shabads in Guru Granth Sahib?”

At the now infamous Yoga camp in France, at the Rainsabai kirtan, he told the sangat that they sing ‘gobinde mukande’ chantt of Guru Gobind Singh wrongly. He told them that they (the 3HO folks) should sing it the ‘gurus way’ and started singing in Raga Gujri (if I can recall correctly) around midnight which made the whole exercise seem unbelievably ridiculous.

Now, Guru Gobind Singh did not sing this chantt and, there is no raga mentioned as an instruction to sing it and Surinder has now added a ‘raga’ where the great Guru did not..!

What did I tell during my ‘kirtan chownki’? I told him that teaching is nice but one must learn before one embarks upon teaching others. That only the raga names are written in the Bani but not the raga forms and for these one has to sit at the feet of the Gur-Panth, and draw from its rich resources that have been handed down to us as an incredible memory banks.

All this made him so scared that he went on a back biting spree and reckless mud slinging maligning my name and then this was so touchingly taken up by the likes of Naam Hari who tied themselves into knots trying to prove that I was not part of the great family while abusively advising me to stand before the mirror each morning..?

Mercifully, there were a lot many following the thread who, while witnessing the whole ‘saga’, retained their objectivity and dignity even as they saw through Surinder’s game and people and refused to be fooled.

about an hour ago · LikeUnlike · 1 person Harkamal Singh likes this. ·

Madan Gopal Singh

ਮੈਂ ਤੇ ਕਹਿ ਰਿਹਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਬ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰੋਫੈਸਰ ਸਾਬ ਨੂੰ ਅਦਾਲਤ ਚ ਲਿਆ ਖੜਾ ਕਰੋ ਓਥੇ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਤਾ ਲੱਗੂ ਕੇ ਗ਼ਲਤ ਬਿਆਨੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਕੀ ਐ ਅਤੇ ਓਹਦਾ ਅੰਜਾਮ ਕੀ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਐ ਫੇਰ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਪਈ ਕੇਹੜੇ ਕੇਹੜੇ ਨਾਦ ਸੁਣੀਂਦੇ ਨੇ ਵਲੈਤੀ ਅਦਾਲਤ ਚ !

57 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·

Nirvair Kaur Khalsa 

Bhai Baldeep I have appreciated that you have never told people to stop practices, such as chanting in our western style. You have corrected only the labels, what things get called. You have been careful to ensure that what gets labeled as traditional or ancient is truly from the heritage and what is new is identified as such.

11 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·

Siri Ram Kaur Khalsa

I think is very important to be clear about what is what, and where things come from; opinions are opinions, and everybody can claim to have his own, but when we come to speak about teachings, and the possibility for future generations also to be able to receive the original ones, the fact become very serious and I think we should take the responsability to go above our gain and loss games; I appreciate a lot the extreme preciseness of the informations given By Bhai Baldeep Singh in his courses; he has the gift to look for and share only informations that are 100% proved from facts or trustable sources, and is very careful in not telling stories that could be found invented in the future; he does this to the extent of being considered even too strict sometimes….

But I like this excess, i like to be able to drink from the source and not from the ego of the person who tells the story.

And beyond this I also like the patience and love he share with us while we try to improve and make lot of mistakes.

Thank you BBS!

3 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personNihal Singh likes this. ·

Harindr Singh 

what did one shop owner tell the other shop owner?friend.. my linen is BETTER than yours…!!

2 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

Harindr Singh with Madan Gopal. Legal action should be on plate

2 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·

Madan Gopal Singh

Harinder ji’s assumptions are interestingly cynical. I hear him saying that there are ‘two shopkeepers’ in the present debate – I wonder if he meant it entirely as a metaphor of sorts! It doesn’t seem as if he did. I am glad at having been spared – he might well have termed me as a pathetic salesman who hangs out on the market pavements trying to lure unsuspecting customers to one of the two shops that may have hired him to do precisely that… He seems to be also saying that the two are at the end of the day not only ‘equal’ but also equally ‘competitive’ and possibly even ‘jealous’ of each other and finally, acting like the jesting pilate, dismisses with the superior air of homespun platitudes the entire thing as some sort of a storm in a teacup. I wish I did not have to be judgmental but what to do these silly times are such. Even at the risk of sounding a crashing bore, I have to reiterate that the entire controversy began with Prof Surinder Matharu’s grandiose claims to a mastery of Naad Yoga which, by now we have come to understand, is nothing more than an airy fairy concoction and has no bearing whatsoever to either classical traditional texts and pedagogy or to an authenticated scientific practice or even a non-conventional structure of logic… contd.

about an hour ago · LikeUnlike ·



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